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pugworthy 1 days ago [-]
My first thought was to wonder what the impact is on existing hydrothermal ecosystems.
The Axial Seamount area is not at all some dead barren zone we can just tap into without concern for ecological harm. Hydrothermal vent areas are very vibrant ecosystems that influence deep ocean ecology in ways we already understand, and probably ways we don't yet understand.
I am glad to see in their press release [1] they do mention careful selection of sites, conditions for operation, and ecological monitoring. And the area is already the focus of oceanographic research by various institutions.
But theoretically, what impact would you anticipate? I feel that the heat will be lost into the environment anyway so it wont eliminate deep sea life.
pugworthy 23 hours ago [-]
It's not about heat loss, it's about possible impact on the ocean floor and thus the unique ecosystems of hydrothermal vents. It may have a low-impact profile when managed correctly, but the process carries potential risks to delicate benthic ecosystems if not done well.
I'm not saying this work is a bad thing, just that one needs to be pretty careful about it. It's probably a soap box I'm more willing to jump up on being a former marine technician on research ships for many years.
puppymaster 22 hours ago [-]
again, a lot of words yet didn't specify the impacts. From LLM:
- vent animals don’t live off the heat. They live off the chemistry in the vent fluid
- so changing of vent flow can be disruptiev
- altering fluid chemistry. organisms there live in very tight thermal and chemical gradients, so little changes can be devastating
- Anchors, drill rigs, equipment frames and power cables crush things
- secondary human/machinery pollution from Leaks of a working fluid, if it’s a closed loop using something like ammonia, antifouling coatings and corrosion products.
- subseafloor microbial biosphere
Would love for experts in this field to chime in though. fascinating stuff.
andrewredd 15 hours ago [-]
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aaron695 1 days ago [-]
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Aboutplants 2 days ago [-]
“The company is also developing a larger 2-megawatt commercial generator for its first planned commercial deployment with the Kingdom of Tonga in 2027. The Polynesian island nation in the South Pacific Ocean runs its power grid primarily on imported diesel fuel, which has significantly increased in price since the United States and Israel launched their war with Iran.
“The 2 MW commercial generators will be about the size of a shipping container, and we are deploying up to six of these generators [to] offshore Tonga,” Redd told Ars. “The physical footprint of this project will be relatively small.”
Nice potential application! I’m not sure of the scaling economics but I certainly do love to see all forms of power generation explored
bananzamba 2 days ago [-]
Just build all new datacenters near underwater volcanoes and you got scaling
lukan 2 days ago [-]
They don't have a unlimited energy supply, that prevents scaling somewhat.
pseudosaid 11 hours ago [-]
besides being an obvious joke, the lava is for the energy needs.
burntpineapple 2 days ago [-]
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snohobro 2 days ago [-]
I have quite a few friends that work at Endurance. I’m excited by their development and to see them making news. Their concept is a cool one. Interested to see how they balance potentially disrupting those ecosystems with putting electricity on the grid.
boringg 2 days ago [-]
Man how high is that equivalent LCOE. No way does capex and opex on this work out. Geothermal underwater with a heat source thats potentially changing a lot.
Seems like a headline grabber and not a real solution but hopefully some useful tech comes out of it.
asdff 1 days ago [-]
Seems like a great way to discretely charge your fleet of submersible stealth drones.
wffurr 1 days ago [-]
Yeah I'm curious about that too. It's an interesting way to get non-weather dependent power in some remote locations, but how useful is that over solar+batteries really? Maybe it's cheaper than synthetic methane?
quickthrowman 6 hours ago [-]
I agree, it seems like it would be astronomically expensive. Setting up a heat exchanger/generator plant on a floating platform (with a step-up transformer for distribution), running the loop piping down to the seafloor, and HV cables hundreds of miles long seems like it’d be an order of magnitude more expensive to construct and operate vs a geothermal power generation station built on land.
I am curious how operations and maintenance will be handled, one of my customers is a CH&P plant that has two annual plant shutdowns for maintenance.
andrewredd 14 hours ago [-]
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pull_my_finger 10 hours ago [-]
When I read stuff like this, or how China is apparently drilling toward the core, I just can't help but wonder (as a layman) what kind of rippling effects harvesting this heat without truly knowing how many physical properties of the world or ecosystems depend on it. The same with windmills. Like it's nice that these energy sources exist and can be used, but when we slow the natural weather fronts with windmills, or we siphon heat away from the core faster than it might naturally permeate, what kind of side-effects is that causing? I'm just very leery of tampering with the forces of nature without extensively exploring and making predictions about possible outcomes
tylerhou 9 hours ago [-]
the amount of energy that humans can realistically harvest from wind / geothermal in the next century is minuscule and is a rounding error compared to natural fluctuations
wind / geothermal has far bigger effects on local environments and fauna vs. “global” energy depletion
chrisbrandow 2 days ago [-]
It is actually entertaining that there is a plausible use for the most super-villain-coded obsession with volcanoes
vikin9 2 days ago [-]
I have tried that in Oxygen Not Included. The problem is that magma quickly solidifies when you remove energy. I wonder if they took that into account.
lelandfe 2 days ago [-]
I tried it successfully in a dream, but the fibrillium outlay eventually caused backflow. I assume they're compensating for that one.
charlieyu1 1 days ago [-]
I don’t think it would have any effect at human scale
h4kor 2 days ago [-]
βehemoth incoming
GolfPopper 2 days ago [-]
Came for the Peter Watts reference, glad to see it! Starfish (1999) focused around this idea and it and it's sequels are well worth the read, IMHO.
Gualdrapo 2 days ago [-]
They delved too greedly and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dûm. Shadow... and flame.
adrianN 1 days ago [-]
Arthur C. Clarke's "The Shining Ones" is also relevant.
mrlonglong 2 days ago [-]
For goodness sakes don't puncture the crust. We'd be back to the Hadean era.
drivers99 2 days ago [-]
Or the Late Permian Siberian Traps when the crust ripped open, erupted for 2 million years, and "are believed to be the primary cause of the Permian–Triassic extinction event, the most severe extinction event in the geologic record": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Traps
mrlonglong 1 days ago [-]
That, too.
Mankind needs to learn before it's too late.
seizethecheese 1 days ago [-]
So what's the key thing that determines feasibility?
The article references an expert who is skeptical, saying that this is unlikely to be cheaper than just doing it on land (standard geothermal)?
The article also references reasons to think this could be worthwhile. Cooling, pressure, etc. One could also guess that permitting could be easier.
But I'm left not really understanding whether they proved enough, or what really needs to be proven.
lucagiftzek 1 days ago [-]
THats... Wow. Ok, I didn't expect to read something so strange but useful here. I'm just scared of what consequences it could have in the reality, like creating natural disasters or simila
jjallen 1 days ago [-]
They should try to recreate the origins of life there while they're at it.
bryanrasmussen 2 days ago [-]
Elon is going to demand access to the Yellowstone Caldera pretty soon I'm guessing.
Terr_ 1 days ago [-]
In the Horizon games (2017, 2022) the egotistical world-wrecking trillionaire puts it elsewhere...
> TED FARO: "An automated geothermal energy plant, right under the city of San Francisco. A marvel. Even I can run it, and let's face it - I was always more of a visionary than an engineer. Which is why I had the foresight... to insist on the inclusion of a very unique feature, just in case anyone ever tries to steal my cheese, so to speak."
jshier 1 days ago [-]
I imagine Faro would be fine taking advantage of Yellowstone were it not for the fact that Firebreak and Cyan were keeping it from erupting.
Really hope we get Horizon 3 sooner than later, I loved The Frozen Wilds and it would be great to get back up there.
jvanderbot 2 days ago [-]
Hey man, shaving a few petawatts off that time bomb would be great.
Geothermal power -> some % saved for atmospheric carbon extraction makes it a carbon negative endeavor.
Relieve the US energy woes somewhat.
Use the carbon to make methane for his rockets.
And make some diesel fuel too, while he's at it (though he'll have to stock up on soybeans - great for his eventual presidential run)
bix6 2 days ago [-]
Bonus if they accidentally make it explode and wipe the planet out. Simulation, restart.
andrewflnr 1 days ago [-]
Obligatory reminder that Yellowstone is at literally zero risk of exploding in the next couple thousand years.
> These recent studies demonstrated for example, that silicic supereruptions with volume exceeding 1,000 km3 of eruptible magma can be generated in less than 5,000–10,000 years (which we call “Yellowstone” type), to longer than 500,000 years
And geology is not a context where "less than 5,000" realistically includes, like 5, or even 100.
Great news for island nations and territories if this can scale. There’s something very sci-fi about islands powered by underwater volcanoes, and the jobs it could create would be fascinating. Going from pearl divers to subsea power-station drone technicians, ha.
I wonder what industries it could help thrive. afaik Iceland has a relatively big aluminium smelting industry due to its cheap, excess geothermal power. Could we see new opportunities spring up in places like Kerguelen, South Georgia or Tristan da Cunha? Modern takes on whaling stations?
tfourb 2 days ago [-]
Remote places don’t have a lack of jobs because of a lack of energy (many of them have a lot of it), but because they are remote. Exploration of a new resource might change how remote they are (Dubai is less remote today than before oil was discovered), but only if the resource is sobering with developing linkages for. Not sure why it would be worth tapping underwater volcanoes in a currently remote place when there are plenty of geothermal sources in less remote places available.
Gooblebrai 2 days ago [-]
> There’s something very sci-fi about islands powered by underwater volcanoes, and the jobs it could create would be fascinating. Going from pearl divers to subsea power-station drone technicians, ha
Volcanoes and underwater jobs? Sounds like Sci-fi Horrors
andrewflnr 1 days ago [-]
> Sounds like Sci-fi Horrors
Correct, the novel is called Starfish by Peter Watts. Though it's mostly not the volcano that kills people.
1 days ago [-]
naishoya 12 hours ago [-]
Designing equipment that will operate reliably at the conditions of this depth is arguably an order of magnitude harder than designing reliable systems that operate in orbit. The expense of lift out of earth's gravity well aside, the actual operating environment is space is clean, with low pressure differentials, lacking corrosion and bio-fouling.
An example of how difficult and complex this is can be readily observed in a 40 year long research grade power plant at NELHA near Kona, HI. The OTEC process uses warm surface seawater to evaporate a working fluid ( ammonia water mixture) using the vapor to drive an electric turbine, and then uses cold deep seawater from 2200ft (~671m) to drive the condenser loop and recirculate the working fluid. The significant difficulties are the massive heat exchangers required to make it work and all of the seawater facing systems face continual bio-fouling and corrosion problems.
They achieve a minimal efficiency and struggle to compete on cost with solar and wind. This is the state of the technology, when mechanical operations are just above sea level and the only real problems at depth are pipeline collapse due to over-accelerated flow and the aforementioned bio-fouling.
Moving those operations to a greater depth significantly changes the pressure. OTEC's pipe only has to deal with 2200 feet / 66.7 atmospheres (~980ppsi) while the wiring and enclosures of the 'lava thermal' rig only survived a few minutes of operation at 5000 feet / 151.5 atmospheres (~2227ppsi). It is illogical to expect for any durable, low cost, renewable power to be reliably operated under those conditions.
This also risks destabilizing poorly understood ecosystems with organisms whose lifespans typically exceed the span of time we have been studying them.
Where these activities occur in international waters the UN International Seafloor Authority requires multi-year environmental baseline studies. Prior to any non-research installation, requirements include biodiversity monitoring, chemical outputs and impacts. before any structural installations are authorized. Contractors are required to continually map biodiversity (microbes, unique gastropods, and specialized crabs) and to monitor chemical outputs in order to avoid permanently impacting the ecosystem's natural dynamics.
So, moving into 'Exclusive Economic Zone' water of a kingdom without rigorous international oversight is an indicator of how this company views the potential regulatory market.
The image of 'saving Tonga from diesel' is a nice greenwash, but if this was economically motivated and truly viable, then locations much closer to megawatt scale underserved growing markets with investment potential and scalar consumer demand, such as the Azores, New Zealand, or Izu Japan would be where this happens first.
So, nice toy research and fancy press publicity with the opportunity to get "It works" headlines and unlock the next Series A tranche is all I can see from here. Hard pass, full stop.
bell-cot 2 days ago [-]
I feel that I should be able name several Jules Verne characters, "B" movie villains, and such who powered their underwater lairs and/or sinister superweapons this way - but I'm coming up blank.
Anyone?
tomrod 2 days ago [-]
The Incredibles did it second, and almost certainly there is a Bond Villian or knockoff Bond show that did it.
fooqux 2 days ago [-]
Did they though? Syndrome had a volcano base for sure, but I don't remember them ever showing a powerplant. The guy was harnessing zero point energy somehow; doesn't seem like mere lava would interest him as a power source.
bnln 2 days ago [-]
The Thunderbirds had Tracy Island
chpatrick 2 days ago [-]
Blofeld from You Only Live Twice.
matheusmoreira 2 days ago [-]
Subnautica bases can be powered entirely by geothermal vents, and one can enter the water by piloting a badass mecha right out of the moonpool.
oersted 2 days ago [-]
Fiat Cliche :)
Some tropes become only known from their parodies, and they lead to other parodies.
mlfreeman 2 days ago [-]
All I can think of are supervillains in land based volcanoes not underwater ones
koolba 2 days ago [-]
I’ve been expecting Oracle to do this. It’d solve their current data center power problem. And it gives a place for Ellison to have video calls with the UN.
igleria 2 days ago [-]
> And it gives a place for Ellison to have video calls with the UN.
Dr Evil in shambles!
a4isms 2 days ago [-]
Ellison stays up late at night watching reruns of The Simpsons' "You Only Move Twice."
Anyone need sugar? He has some in his pocket. How about cream? No thanks!
> Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative.
Seriously. How often do we get a story that intersects power generation and volcanos?
I read, or at least lightly skim through, the article I post about. But always post whatever comes to mind, regardless of how it will come across.
tomhow 22 hours ago [-]
Touché I guess, but…
> Seriously. How often do we get a story that intersects power generation and volcanos?
Exactly! But your comment and its lame subthread, which all had nothing to do with the article, sat at the top of the thread for hours, drowning out substantive comments that were relevant to the article.
I wouldn’t bother replying if it just slipped down the bottom of the thread. But keeping discussions high-quality and on-topic is my job here and that means reminding people to post thoughtful, substantive comments, not “whatever comes to mind, regardless of how it will come across”. We especially need longer term/more prominent users to set the example, please.
lenerdenator 2 days ago [-]
I've always imagined him to be more of a space station lair sort of villain.
Also, let's not sell him short: those aren't video calls, they're ransom calls.
ghostbrainalpha 1 days ago [-]
Can’t wait for my AWS region selection dropdown to include "us-pacific-active-magma-1"
The Axial Seamount area is not at all some dead barren zone we can just tap into without concern for ecological harm. Hydrothermal vent areas are very vibrant ecosystems that influence deep ocean ecology in ways we already understand, and probably ways we don't yet understand.
I am glad to see in their press release [1] they do mention careful selection of sites, conditions for operation, and ecological monitoring. And the area is already the focus of oceanographic research by various institutions.
[1] https://www.enduranceenergy.com/press/adelie
I'm not saying this work is a bad thing, just that one needs to be pretty careful about it. It's probably a soap box I'm more willing to jump up on being a former marine technician on research ships for many years.
- vent animals don’t live off the heat. They live off the chemistry in the vent fluid
- so changing of vent flow can be disruptiev
- altering fluid chemistry. organisms there live in very tight thermal and chemical gradients, so little changes can be devastating
- Anchors, drill rigs, equipment frames and power cables crush things
- secondary human/machinery pollution from Leaks of a working fluid, if it’s a closed loop using something like ammonia, antifouling coatings and corrosion products.
- subseafloor microbial biosphere
Would love for experts in this field to chime in though. fascinating stuff.
“The 2 MW commercial generators will be about the size of a shipping container, and we are deploying up to six of these generators [to] offshore Tonga,” Redd told Ars. “The physical footprint of this project will be relatively small.”
Nice potential application! I’m not sure of the scaling economics but I certainly do love to see all forms of power generation explored
Seems like a headline grabber and not a real solution but hopefully some useful tech comes out of it.
I am curious how operations and maintenance will be handled, one of my customers is a CH&P plant that has two annual plant shutdowns for maintenance.
wind / geothermal has far bigger effects on local environments and fauna vs. “global” energy depletion
Mankind needs to learn before it's too late.
The article references an expert who is skeptical, saying that this is unlikely to be cheaper than just doing it on land (standard geothermal)?
The article also references reasons to think this could be worthwhile. Cooling, pressure, etc. One could also guess that permitting could be easier.
But I'm left not really understanding whether they proved enough, or what really needs to be proven.
> TED FARO: "An automated geothermal energy plant, right under the city of San Francisco. A marvel. Even I can run it, and let's face it - I was always more of a visionary than an engineer. Which is why I had the foresight... to insist on the inclusion of a very unique feature, just in case anyone ever tries to steal my cheese, so to speak."
Really hope we get Horizon 3 sooner than later, I loved The Frozen Wilds and it would be great to get back up there.
Geothermal power -> some % saved for atmospheric carbon extraction makes it a carbon negative endeavor.
Relieve the US energy woes somewhat.
Use the carbon to make methane for his rockets.
And make some diesel fuel too, while he's at it (though he'll have to stock up on soybeans - great for his eventual presidential run)
From the first link, again:
> These recent studies demonstrated for example, that silicic supereruptions with volume exceeding 1,000 km3 of eruptible magma can be generated in less than 5,000–10,000 years (which we call “Yellowstone” type), to longer than 500,000 years
And geology is not a context where "less than 5,000" realistically includes, like 5, or even 100.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_in_the_World
I wonder what industries it could help thrive. afaik Iceland has a relatively big aluminium smelting industry due to its cheap, excess geothermal power. Could we see new opportunities spring up in places like Kerguelen, South Georgia or Tristan da Cunha? Modern takes on whaling stations?
Volcanoes and underwater jobs? Sounds like Sci-fi Horrors
Correct, the novel is called Starfish by Peter Watts. Though it's mostly not the volcano that kills people.
An example of how difficult and complex this is can be readily observed in a 40 year long research grade power plant at NELHA near Kona, HI. The OTEC process uses warm surface seawater to evaporate a working fluid ( ammonia water mixture) using the vapor to drive an electric turbine, and then uses cold deep seawater from 2200ft (~671m) to drive the condenser loop and recirculate the working fluid. The significant difficulties are the massive heat exchangers required to make it work and all of the seawater facing systems face continual bio-fouling and corrosion problems.
They achieve a minimal efficiency and struggle to compete on cost with solar and wind. This is the state of the technology, when mechanical operations are just above sea level and the only real problems at depth are pipeline collapse due to over-accelerated flow and the aforementioned bio-fouling.
Moving those operations to a greater depth significantly changes the pressure. OTEC's pipe only has to deal with 2200 feet / 66.7 atmospheres (~980ppsi) while the wiring and enclosures of the 'lava thermal' rig only survived a few minutes of operation at 5000 feet / 151.5 atmospheres (~2227ppsi). It is illogical to expect for any durable, low cost, renewable power to be reliably operated under those conditions.
This also risks destabilizing poorly understood ecosystems with organisms whose lifespans typically exceed the span of time we have been studying them.
Where these activities occur in international waters the UN International Seafloor Authority requires multi-year environmental baseline studies. Prior to any non-research installation, requirements include biodiversity monitoring, chemical outputs and impacts. before any structural installations are authorized. Contractors are required to continually map biodiversity (microbes, unique gastropods, and specialized crabs) and to monitor chemical outputs in order to avoid permanently impacting the ecosystem's natural dynamics.
So, moving into 'Exclusive Economic Zone' water of a kingdom without rigorous international oversight is an indicator of how this company views the potential regulatory market.
The image of 'saving Tonga from diesel' is a nice greenwash, but if this was economically motivated and truly viable, then locations much closer to megawatt scale underserved growing markets with investment potential and scalar consumer demand, such as the Azores, New Zealand, or Izu Japan would be where this happens first.
So, nice toy research and fancy press publicity with the opportunity to get "It works" headlines and unlock the next Series A tranche is all I can see from here. Hard pass, full stop.
Anyone?
Some tropes become only known from their parodies, and they lead to other parodies.
Dr Evil in shambles!
Anyone need sugar? He has some in his pocket. How about cream? No thanks!
> Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative.
Seriously. How often do we get a story that intersects power generation and volcanos?
I read, or at least lightly skim through, the article I post about. But always post whatever comes to mind, regardless of how it will come across.
> Seriously. How often do we get a story that intersects power generation and volcanos?
Exactly! But your comment and its lame subthread, which all had nothing to do with the article, sat at the top of the thread for hours, drowning out substantive comments that were relevant to the article.
I wouldn’t bother replying if it just slipped down the bottom of the thread. But keeping discussions high-quality and on-topic is my job here and that means reminding people to post thoughtful, substantive comments, not “whatever comes to mind, regardless of how it will come across”. We especially need longer term/more prominent users to set the example, please.
Also, let's not sell him short: those aren't video calls, they're ransom calls.